The feelings mothers employ when considering whether their daughters should have sex presently with some particular male

It's an interesting question the extent to which mothers ideally should influence daughters' mating activity. In some cultures, e.g., those with arranged marriages being the norm, the daughter has very little control over whom she will mate, while in others, the mother has very little control. But of course, no matter what the laws, the person with legal control can for all practical purposes cede it to the other merely by deferring the decision to the other. Who should have control, though an interesting question, is not quite the question that mosts interests me or what I shall discuss here. The most interesting question, it seems to me, and what I wish to elaborate upon, is that of the extent to which a young female's sexual decisions should be influenced by her mother. Moral daughters tend to be in moral families that usually behave morally, and the most important thing is that moral daughters mate reasonably (in such a way as to encourage evolution of their useful and moral traits), which in these families who defer reasonably won't much depend on whether the laws that dictate control are reasonable. As discussed in a previous post, I believe that the main influence a mother should and does have over her daughter's sexual activity is to inform the daughter of the chances that such activity would be a large mistake. In reasonable families, the main control a mother can and does have over her daughter relationship-wise is that she can make the daughter afraid of a male or more comfortable with him, depending upon whether the mother is herself afraid or comfortable with him being intimate with her daughter. When a mother protects a daughter from what she sees as a big mistake, the chances that the daughter actually by nature (as opposed to from deception or nefarious controlling influence) really wants to do what she is contemplating are fairly slim, more especially because the daughter is half from the mother after all. Thus, there is not the least reason why a mother should think that protecting her daughter from a big sexual mistake with a male or encouraging her to feel more sexually comfortable with a male is otherwise than encouraging her daughter to be true to herself (and it is important that people are true to their innate natures when they mate, lest ideal virtuous mating tendencies not be selected for by evolution) and no reason why a daughter would view respecting her mother there as disrespecting herself or being untrue to herself. Accordingly, mothers have a tendency to specialize in evaluating danger, i.e., possibilities of daughters' large mistakes—it's what is and should be most influential. More especially do they specialize thus because such specialization and influence has caused mothers to evolve to be unusually effective (compared with daughters) at such activity. What I have new to say is that there are a couple mistakes mothers tend to make.


When a mother vicariously considers whether a particular man is the right sort to be intimate with her daughter, the part of herself that she puts into the consideration is largely that part of her that deals with safety and danger. When she fantasizes about her daughter having sex with a male, the pleasure tends to go up and down depending upon her present particular intimations and impressions of how safe her daughter would be with him. Insofar as her imagination is concerned, the mother's impression of the pleasure that a male would give her daughter should the male be not very much worse than he seems is something that she should and largely will judge mostly from what she feels her daughter thinks. My impression is that mothers on occasion make the mistake of believing that their own particular mental and emotional inputs that they use when judging a male are better and more important than those that their daughters would more tend to use. Just because a mother is more mature is no reason for her to think that the thoughts and internal feelings that are in her when she judges a mate for her daughter are better than the thoughts and feelings that are in her daughter when the daughter fantasizes more directly about a male. Mature approaches are not always better; it is often highly appropriate, in fact, that immature people behave immaturely. I'm not saying it is wrong for parents to be concerned for their daughters' sexual safety to a large degree (compared with their daughters' concern), I am saying it is wrong to slight the young daughters' tendencies to possess feelings of love and pleasure that just sort of assume that the male is safe (largely to the degree her mother thinks). The mature need to be mature, and the immature need to be immature. Girls need more than to avoid big mistakes—they also need to avoid little mistakes and to obtain rewards small or great, and the possibilities of the latter is what their immature selves are good at evaluating themselves, and what they should straightforwardly be themselves in fantasizing about and evaluating. Also, love needs not only that it not be thrown away on an utter villain, but also that it be given to him who is worthy or, better yet, very worthy. Because their childrens' safety is what mothers should tend to be most concerned about, and because mothers mistakenly think the children too should share the same concern, mothers tend to overestimate the importance of safety. A mother can play an important role in making her daughter feel safe when she is sufficiently safe and scared when she is in danger, but these matters are not particularly what daughters should be much concerned about, at least if the daughters can trust their parents.


The other mistake mothers tend to make is that they misinterpret their feelings of safety. When a mother vicariously fantasizes about a male having sex with her daughter, it is hard to say exactly, but my impression is that the physical pleasure which varies depending on how comfortable she feels about the male being safe is a sort of all-over-the-skin tingly comfy feeling. That it is an all-over feeling presumably protects the mother (and it's usually mothers who think so much of safety) from thinking the fantasy is probably about wanting sex herself. I think a mother might confuse this feeling with the comfortable feelings she might have about the male's ability or desire to provide materially for his daughter, which would after all tend to make the daughter more safe (from other things, like starvation). I leave it to females to determine what exactly this latter feeling is like, but presumably it is different from a feeling that a male is safe in the sense it's not at all likely he's much worse than he appears.


This confusion, when together with the confusion of the preceding paragraph, only tends to aggravate in mothers the tendency to overestimate the importance of money, a conceit, of course, mostly held by older people. (Older people hanging around mainly older people, and older people tending to have the most money and thus the most to gain selfishly by making money seem extra-important, the tendency for old people to overestimate the importance of money would exist even without the confusions mentioned.) Also, it might make mothers overestimate the ability of a virtuous (and thus totally safe) male to be a provider, creating unrealistic expectations.


Another consideration, it occurs to me, is that a female lusting is a dangerous (though potentially quite rewarding) phenomenon to her. As females age, they have less-and-less capacity to lust, mostly because lust is not rewarding to older females as it can be to younger females (not that lust is not more dangerous for younger females, but that is besides the point) (my theory is that female lust is significant mainly because it encourages intraejaculate sperm selection after being absorbed by a male). Anyway, too often as women age they mistake their decreased desire to lust as an effect of wisdom; it has nothing to do with wisdom, just maturity. Women's bodies are such they can't select for sperm especially suited to fertilizing young females, and so largely they have no use for lusting (an important exception being if other females, and more especially other young females are also involved). There is a tendency for women to believe the widespread lies of vile males, who mostly tend like the Taliban to view female lust as evil or stupid, and to consider their decreased lust as proof that females lusting is not only immature but stupid, to be quickly dismissed away as just a kind of immature “raging hormones” or whatever. This sort of tendency goes hand in hand with their tendency to think danger too important. I strongly do not think, however, that in practice this general disrespect for lust that women have discourages mothers from wanting their daughters to lust. A woman may and often does think female lust foolish, but once she encounters a male she thinks sufficiently safe whom she knows her daughter from her own (the daughter's) nature is very much sexually in love with, all those abstract considerations get thrown out the window. A mother in a situation like that very quickly realizes her not wanting to feel lust for sex is not an effect of mature wisdom, because though she isn't much keen on lusting for own sexual activity, she definitely will emotionally appreciate the pleasure of her daughter having lust, which will make mockery of her theories about how female lust is foolish on account of it being something only immature females with their immature brains could want. Why would she want to hurt her daughter? Indeed, the extent to which a girl should lust when having sex depends heavily on how safe the sex is; if a male is virtuous, a girl should be lustful, else there is no benefit to having sex young; but if the male is a deceptive villain, her feeling lust is a disaster, and will select for the most pathetic sperm imaginable—it's way worse than randomness. What really makes a (young) girl want to feel lust for a male during sex is her impression of her sexual evaluations being safe. A mother who wants her daughter to have sex wants her daughter to feel safe and comfy (in the sense of the sex not being dangerous as opposed to the sense of feeling the male will likely be a good provider for her), because she wouldn't want her daughter to have sex if she didn't think the sex is safe. Since mothers tend to specialize in evaluating danger and this comfyness effectively, a mother soothing her daughter when the mother actually wants to the daughter to have sex goes a very major way to making the daughter feel more safe. And a particular reason a mother wants her daughter to feel sexually safe, beyond that it can make the daughter want sex, is that it can make the daughter feel the sex is safe for lust. So it's only among mothers who haven't much experienced situations in which they wonder whether their young daughters should have sex who view their incapacity to lust as just another proof that girls need safety especially much. When mothers actually encounter males they want their daughters to have sex with, the reality of their desire for their daughters to feel lust is so strong (even compared with what the daughter herself is feeling), that disillusion is likely to be more-or-less immediate and in all likelihood more than sufficient. But it is pretty unusual for a girl to meet someone she should feel so sure about that she should have sex with him presently rather than later or not-at-all, and thus for a mother to want her young daughter to have lustful sex; so unfortunately, though women's underestimation of the specialness of female lust doesn't in practice much discourage women from encouraging their daughters to take risks for the sake of lustful pleasure, yet it makes the general social climate toward girls taking risks for their sexual pleasure and more particularly the risk of girls lusting for their own sexual pleasure a much more inimical one than it should be.


One might have noticed one could argue in reverse that girls, denying their parents' modes of thinking, tend to underestimate the importance of safety. It may be true that girls tend to underestimate the importance of safety and the danger of danger, but I don't think the reasons are entirely analogous. Parents can't always be there to protect girls; girls have no choice but often to put themselves into judging whether a male is safe, which to a certain extent they should do regardless (but probably not quite to the extent they should respect their parents' views there if they respect their parents and their parents' abilities as much as they do themselves and their own abilities). Accordingly, all the aforementioned arguments apply significantly more weakly in the reverse direction. But there is another consideration. Namely, the part of a girl that she does not share with her mother wants just like the rest of the girl to be safe, but it isn't attracted to her mother's considerations on account of her mother being like her (though it might to a certain extent especially value her mother's considerations on account of her mother having less reason to want to behave selfishly toward her). On the other hand, the part of a mother distinct from a daughter shares no pleasure or pain in the daughter making a particular choice, it being unrelated to the daughter; it is at worst indifferent. And so, as I mentioned in a previous post (with perhaps too much allusion toward statistics in it, it seems to me now), girls will undesirably tend to rely on general impressions of how safe a possible relationship would be and whether such safety be important, whereas they would do better (on average) to more respect their parents' opinions and to less encourage their parents to be more normal and less weird.

Caricature of myself

The other day I was re-reading the poems I have written in the past few years, and noticed an interesting one I had completely forgotten about. According to the word processor, I wrote it July 11, 2006. I don't believe I have heard of anybody named Leilna and have no particular interest in hang gliders. And I am far from being able to identify all plants. Still, the main character sort of reminds me of me.

He swam across the sea

He swam across the sea
to meet her
on the field
in Nimjabaroombom
for it was written,

"At half-past-six and ten-till-two
she’ll come flying by,
riding upon a giant shrew."

He opened his arms
at six-twenty-five,
AM,
hoping to meet her.
Into the wind he turned
for that’s how birds like to fly
when landing.
“Right”,
he thought,
and turned around.

There she was,
above the horizon,
her shrew was flying,
using the latest in bird-suit technology,
replicating free fall in computer-assisted ways
deemed safe.

Her mind was obvious
full of sparkling imaginings,
of things deemed too safe
for those who can’t take boredom,

He lowered his head upon the
dirt
and made obeisance
with his heart
“Oh, great Leilna, I have come to give
homage
to thy glorious presence
and don’t know if you would have the time
to consider me properly,
but I here right now
do give thee the chance
especially considering
that tomorrow
is the fourth of July,
and I wasn’t sure you would
fly that day.”

He quite hidden was
in the tall grass
his arms outstretched
she never really noticed him
and as he bowed down before her
she wandered off
with her bird suit
and unusual pet
and walked back to the pickup point.

Right then
he noticed a movement in the grass
Temporarily forgetting his purpose
for the greater good
he observed a grasshopper
It jumped.

Then, from the other side,
his left,
(when facing Leilna putting the hang glider in the pickup truck)
he spotted it.
What seemed like one thing
actually was another!
No fern that,
here in the dry place,
but a new kind of plant,
one he had not seen before!
Quick,
“zavazravroom”,
“click”,
the for-all-eternity-fixing machine
fixed it
for his later study.
Perhaps this plant is what I need to understand,
he thought,
to understand Leilna.

He wandered to his home,
his mother asked him what he was doing.

Oh, looking at the hang-gliders and
taking pictures of plants.
I found one plant I hadn’t seen before.

OK. But stay away from the cliffs.
And watch out you don’t get landed on!
And could you fix lunch,
your dad is getting hungry.

A right good lunch he fixed,
pea soup
and broccoli,
just what nutritionally
everyone needed.

Off again, he thought,
to the meadow where the pretty girl
will land
today
at 1:50 pm.

Over the creek
he jumped
up the hillside
to the landing zone
he stood tall

Girls, dizziness, and trust

Except for a dozen or so words of editing, I wrote the poem ending this post a couple days ago. It is not very poetical, but perhaps it makes up for it sufficiently to be worth posting from it being informative. Lately I have been thinking that pretty much there is no chance of being understood by people who are very much afraid of being wrongfully shamed by me. Unfortunately, pretty much all girls who would be interested enough to think about me tend to look like they are that way. I can't say that I deserve this; it's just something that follows from my being wise enough to know how to make a girl ashamed of herself. There is no way one can be wise enough to understand properly how to discriminate between depraved behavior and innocuous behavior without being looked upon as some sort of dangerous individual. If I were to tell a girl she be a skank, my having thought carefully about the exact characteristics of skankiness would make my opinion sting greatly. Why I would do such a thing unless I really believed it, I don't know, but it is just a part of being who I am that I must deal much more than usual with that fear.

It's mainly females who behave dishonestly with each other as regards what is shameful or not. They can be quite manipulative about it (e.g., in making male desires for sex seem shameful, especially if such sex is not accompanied by marriage) with both sexes. Making a female feel like her behavior is shameful has a way of making her want to be more asexual and nun-like--the last thing a male would want. Males aren't often as manipulative that way as females. Of course, there might be a selfish tendency for males to make girls feel their relationships with other males are shameful, so they'll get more sex themselves. But really, females more judge males from the opinion of other females; and really it isn't necessary for a male to tell a girl whether a male is corrupting her or not; it suffices merely to point out what corruption is. And there are hellfire preachers who manipulate with shame to make their congregations bigger, but I am not especially trying to recruit a church.

As regards me, what girls seem to fear more, I feel, is my not really appreciating them very much. They will not especially take seriously what I have to say as long as they think I might be trying to manipulate, mock or trifle with them. Yes, I don't tend to bulldoze through obstacles or overcome external difficulties in relationships as though I be in a Sherman tank. I settle for what is possible. I already am mostly free, and to the extent I am not, well, it's not because depravity has me by the hindquarters, so I doubt whether I should get too perturbed about it. Unlike almost everyone else in this world, I have my own notion of what is depraved and what isn't. In particular, I actually think there is a distinction between humiliating someone by doing something depraved and humiliating someone by pointing out that one is addicted to depravity. If that makes me too dangerous to take me seriously, well, love is not an adequate recompense for sin, so it's not like I'm going to lie about what I believe just for the sake of making me more pleasant to deal with. I guess the main reason I'm slow and not particularly fast as regards females is that usually I mostly have no choice--they have to trust me enough to think about my opinions before my opinions will have any effect other than making me seem pushy and manipulative. And then if they do trust me sufficiently, if I don't get all excited and quick or like I'm fighting Pickett's charge when difficulty arises, maybe that is just because I believe getting all excited won't accomplish anything except to freak out everyone's family and close friends so much that the freedom we both probably mostly have will disintegrate. Yes, that makes sense. At least, I do not interpret my lack of enthusiasm as lack of love. (But she reminds me of electron physics, and I still don't have a clue why (or any well-thought out coherent theory of electron physics or intellectual reason to think I might obtain one), so it's not as though I understand what I am feeling, which has some dim subtlety about it.)

The morning of the day I wrote the poem below, a strange phenomenon occurred to me. I awakened with an extreme dizziness that lasted several hours. It was an extremely miserable feeling, as though I was dying. But the dizziness went away almost as suddenly as it came, and I survived after all. This got me to thinking, Why is dizziness such an extremely wretched sensation? I don't seem to be any worse for the experience. And then it occurred to me that perhaps semen contains chemicals that via sodomy can cause dizziness. That would also explain why dizziness tends to cause vomiting (fortunately I hadn't eaten in twelve hours, so all I vomited was a little water I had drunk)--vomiting is an obvious defense against oral sodomy. Clearly if a sodomy victim is dizzy, that might be expected to tend to make the victim easier to deal with, rape, control, etc. Even when dizziness is not caused by sodomy, the brain probably has evolved to behave as though the dizziness is likely caused by sodomy, which would explain the extreme miserableness and emetic nature of it. (I'm not sure what caused my dizziness. The day before I thoughtless ate I think an excessive number of dates, perhaps on account of being agitated at the Treasury Secretary's preposterous proposal to lend money to people to buy toxic assets, enriching bank investors at the expense of people losing their jobs and going hungry, but I don't know for sure if the dates had anything to do with it.) A girl especially probably would be prudent to play so as to have a good understanding of her natural propensity toward dizziness. And if she is unusually sexually pleased she naturally might tend to shake her head violently by way of comparing her then propensity toward dizziness with that which she had examined during play dance. I think that this might explain why girls (especially apparently) often thrash their heads about in dancing--they're experimenting with their dizziness levels, by way of seeing what these levels are ordinarily or when unusually sexually excited, checking in the latter case to make sure the dizziness levels aren't excessive--and why (I have noticed) that girls who tend to do this thrashing can be unusually clean and attractive looking. I must admit, though, I wonder whether it is often overdone--people can be very black-and-white about anti-sodomy things--leading in this case to excessively sore necks or rattled brains, I imagine.


What I want
I want to be with her.
I want to be able to talk about anything I want.
And be listened to.
And disagreed with when she disagrees.

I want freedom
And so does she
Rescuing each other from the same thing a little illogical.
I am already free,
mostly,
And so is she,
mostly, I guess.

I want to be more sacred in my eating habits.
I chow down way too much without even realizing it
Until it is too late.
I don't really know what else I need to be more disciplined about.

I need to be more lazy
in opposition perhaps
more than anything.
I get too focused on fighting the bad,
my health gives way and I eat a dozen dates without realizing it
and get more sick.

Everything I eat I must eat with sacred due consideration
of its probable effects. I'd prefer always to eat a little less than what I am hungry for.

I wish I could be with her.
But what can I do?
But take more care in my eating habits.

I see death in haste.
Maybe we'll have a child and all three starve.
More probably, what she is brave enough to play with
won't matter as much as what people would think.
I'm odd.
Nothingness all I'd get if I tried.
I don't know why
families would make a commotion,
and win somehow,
they would
unless I don't see this as obtaining freedom.
We're already free.
Emotionally, I don't want to approach this with a running start.
Passion?
Yawn.
I could cover your hand, though,
and look at you,
and say things that I happen to be thinking.
And if you are dispassionate enough, maybe I won't really care
what I say
except that it is true
and interesting
and something you might not have thought of before
in exactly that way.

Females can be sort of strange about pride.
She can make the mistake of thinking what I say matters
not only whether it is true,
but whether it makes her feel good about herself.
To tell a girl her faults to make her feel pain,
a very strange desire
it would be hard to imagine any male possessing
except from a kind of immature anger.
And yet,
I would make a girl feel ashamed of herself if she deserved it.
Reform matters.
And I don't really think girls should respect me if I didn't think so.
What a girl really wants is a male not to emotionally dwell on her faults.

I don't expect a girl not to want to take pride in herself.
I have my own opinions about what is depraved and what is not.
I don't care much what others think beyond their proofs and to the extent I do,
criticize me.
It's perhaps too much for me to hope to find a girl who has her own opinions there.
I don't expect or even want to be trusted,
there.
I want a girl who will mostly trust me,
before very long,
in that I won't try to manipulate her into feeling bad
about things she ought not to feel bad about.
I'm not trying to turn you into church lady.
Not going to make you feel guilt so you'll go to my church.
I don't have a church.
Not going to make you feel guilty about a him just so
you'll sleep with me instead.
Or if I don't believe you should.
I mostly have freedom,
but not enough trust
that I can say things
to someone who will listen and think.
If I had that from you,
I wouldn't need much of any other trust,
since you'd want me yourself,
or move on.
More than what anyone else can give me,
I can imagine from you,
though not for any particular reason
I can understand.

Various Ideas about Girls

I thought I'd post various ideas I've had lately abut young females, but haven't much yet fit into the whole. Actually, I haven't had much insight about females lately, mostly because I haven't been around them much of late or otherwise had much new data about them, and partly because I have instead been thinking about mathematical logic (and the Silly Logic paper that I've been retouching as I am typesetting it in LaTeX). But even in uninhabited icy plains things can on occasion occur to me. Also, I've been thinking somewhat carefully lately about intellectual and economic snobbery, but what I want to say there is intricate and not yet polished, so it may take a while before I post about it.

1. As I have mentioned earlier, there is something pretty about a girl trying to jolt a male away from guilt by making the latter experience an internal lust in a sort of light way. Males can get in a vicious circle where guilt leads to lack of piety and lack of piety leads to guilt. A girl can jolt one out of that, and good for girls who do so. True, when a girl looks like she is trying to tease the priggishness out of a male there is something seductive about that, probably because men often need to be seduced into something so contrary to the prevailing lies from mercenary females. Anyway, I've mentioned this before. What I haven't mentioned is that when an older female tries to seduce a male by causing him to play with a lust she doesn't plan to be willing to accept, it not only doesn't work, somehow I have an inexplicable feeling it ages the female. It might be relevant that unlike girls, women should be smart enough to be able to use intellectual persuasion as a foil to misplaced sexual guilt in the males they admire.

2. The more I think about it, the more I think there is something to my hypothesis that young girls can be made more fertile by being intimate with older females. The feelings which girls have for older girls are not really symmetrical. To the extent older girls have physical feelings for younger girls, it's mostly about increasing the former's sexual lust. The lust older girls can enjoy from younger girls often makes the former view their feelings for the latter as selfish, dark, and controlling. But it is not at all that way in the reverse direction. Young girls, if my theory about intraejaculate sperm selection is right, don't really have much to gain lustwise from older girls. To the extent younger girls have physical feelings for older girls, it's usually about becoming more fertile and thus having babies. I suppose it is as innocent-seeming as holding a baby doll to one's chest: it is the loving non-lustful sort of way girls are supposed to view physical attraction. The love young girls feel toward older girls is how girls are supposed to love, and so young girls all mostly feel very comfortable about it. I guess this would at least partly explain why preadolescent females tend to be so at ease with worshiping teen starlets like Hannah Montana, etc.

3. Another idea I have had concerns it being very appropriate that females love mainly through sex. Well, sort of. Obviously the caring of motherhood is an important female love. And just the general things females do to make the world a better place at their jobs or in public debates, in the political sphere, etc., are important as they are with males. Still, though, the love that females give through sex is so important and so often maligned that one kind of almost wishes females would think of themselves loving basically just through sex. Women who say love and sex are different and that therefore they aren't bad for being sexually selfish (say, by valuing money over love in their mating decisions) are so common and pernicious, that really it gets to the point one can just be a little fanatical and wish females would just love through sex. I think that is why there is just something attractive and appealing about females who are somewhat physical about their non-sexual affection. It is nice for girls to view affection short of sex as involving physical hugs, etc. And as for the love mothers feel for their babies, somehow that women have breasts makes it seem a more physical thing and as an outgrowth of the sexual love they had in producing the children. When affectionate women care from love, I suppose it is centered in their chest, which somehow seems appropriate, an encouragement however moderate to view their most important loving natures as physical.

It is interesting to consider how female maternal feelings develop. Very young girls, judging from their love of baby dolls, etc., typically seem to have much more maternal feelings than sexual ones. Very young girls not having much capacity for sexual feelings presumably protects them from deceptive feelings that might occur from abuse (sodomy). But near adolescence it is probably rather reversed. Adolescent girls aren't any more maternal than young females, for example, but they can be sexual (they are freqeuntly maligned for “raging hormones”). It's more dangerous for females to have sex from pleasure than love, and somehow it strikes me that girls in particular are more likely to view love for a male as a maternal thing, as an incipient love for the babies that might be conceived than as a purely sexual thing, ie., as a loving desire to please a male sexually. This notwithstanding they have plenty of capacity to view their own pleasure as a sexual thing. So accordingly it might just be from prudence that girls are less maternal, it being unusually imprudent for them to be sexually loving. Also, it might be what I was getting at in my last poem might be relevant. I.e., maternal loving for a child, unlike sexual loving for a male, has a pleasing component to the female, on account of a mother's children being related to her and thus in some sense a part of her (whereas her mate is not related to her). So girls around the age of adolescence not being much by way of emotionally maternal probably protects them from dangerously thinking loving as pleasant (as opposed to thinking what is loveable as pleasant); it seems appropriate, therefore, that by nature, maternal feelings come less easily to them and are more awkwardly viewed by themselves.